Curse

Losttoapathy · May 27, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottyboysn

I really get a kick out of them saying it would reduce players playing with other players, especially when you can have a full party with 2 players and 6 heroes. All the extra heroes would do for me is replace henchmen, not people. Who is really concerned about the henchmen's feelings? Come on.

I've really been frustrated latley trying to get my Guadian of Tyria title. Every single one I've completed has been with heroes and hechmen. I've TRIED to complete them with human players (if I can find them), but not once has a human team managed to stay alive. It's a miracle I was able to do Aurora Glade with heroes=/ Sanctum Cay? Forget about it. I've been trying to find a party for a week.

Seriously, I feel your pain. I have been through the majority of Tyria missions on HM (1 with humans, the rest with heroes/hench), but I get to Sanctum Cay, and there are precious few people looking to do hard mode. And the people who are looking to do it, only want a specific team. (Searing Flames eles, LoD monk etc. [Digression, I know...]) I tried doing it with heros/hench but gave up halfway through because most of us were on high DP. Have tried several times since, but to no avail. Too many people are still asking for this on normal mode or wanting runs. Sigh.

Gun Pierson · May 27, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I regret we don't have the choice of playing with 7 heroes of our own.

Aera Lure · May 27, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Actually finding people playing hard mode seems to me to be more of the problem. That's what ruffled my feathers about Gaile's quote, because I can basically paraphrase it as "Tough. Play with people. We arent giving you a full group of heroes so you can do it on your own." Well, I dont want to do it on my own. Has Anet tried to find people to play with in hard mode? If they did, they might also have asked for 7 heroes.

I dont actually care one way or the other about 7 heroes in the end. I want better ways of finding hard mode players scattered few and far between all over the place.

Anyway, I dont think Zinger was complaining. Nothing wrong with a bit of sarcasm. I agreed with it. Finding hard mode players is a problem, and that ultimately was most of what Zinger italicized regarding Gaile's quote. I also appreciated the head's up on Gaile's quote so I knew Anet's position.

Miral · May 27, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

hell I'd be fine with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen, if they'd just make it so heroes stop taking loot and so henchmen only share coin drops! but i guess if they're going to take all the loot, they might as well be the best they can be...

bhavv · May 28, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

I have just painfully completed all the tryia missions in HM. I moved onto Zen Daijun and attempted it with heroes... 3 SF's, Command Para with Charge, ToF, Fall back, and the healer henches*.

Damage output - Awesome, Healing output - Lame.

So then I started LFG after dying over and over. In the first one I got I was extremely happy to be able to take my monk heroes.

Healing output - Awesome, Damage output - Lame.

I mean, we had a Pure W/R tank with Troll ungent doing nothing but staying alive. I tried again and found someone with monk heroes. I was exited until - 'I dont have LoD. I dont have GoH. I dont have Channeling........'

/Banghead against wall.

After about 5 hours of trying one mission, I gave up.

And btw I was LFG for over an hour.

*Talking about healer hench in Cantha, Proffesor Gais build is very very good, perfect, spot on. I cant believe Anet actually have one henchmen with a great build. However, his AI is rubbish. He wont use his elite urn until he runs out of energy, when his urn wears of he is probably at -10 energy from his weapon etc. When I give Razah the exact same build, I manual cast Attuned Was Songkai, give him channeling and dont give him a weapon and he is sooo much better.

But why, if they have the ability to make such a good Rit healer build despite the AI flaws, does Cantha have such terrible healer henchmen with 3 10e spammable skills? It makes me sad when I see Sister Tais skill bar.

/end rant here.

Steps_Descending · May 28, 2007, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Somehow, i'm against having full heroes but ...
am I the only one who actually prefer henches to heroes based on personality?
...
/sigh Yeah, thought so.

Tarun · May 28, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

If a person wants to PuG, they will. If they want to use all heroes, then let them and stop making excuses about why the team is too lazy to do so. We already can use Heroes and hench, there is no real difference in using an all hero party versus an all hench party; the only difference is that an all hero party can run the skills you want.

Here's the easiest way to fix it. MAX_HEROES = 7 (instead of 3). It's a friggin one byte change.

scottyboysn · May 28, 2007, 01:54 AM // 01:54

I think the dev team who came to this decision should be forced into a random district for 3 hours and have to type "LFG HM" and then spend 5 hours trying to beat Aurora Glade with henchmen.

That's the only way we'd see change. This dosen't look like a problem their gonna fix based upon the large uproar from the community.

Edge Martinez · May 28, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I think the dev team and Gaile are right. Great job Anet, keep it up!

Smile Like Umean It · May 28, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

The one thing that stood out more than anything to me was this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile

However, the final decision on this matter was made by the design team prior to release of Nightfall. So do be assured that the designers have read the comments, concerns, and suggestions on this matter, but with a clear and comprehensive view of the overall game, and out of respect for the vision that they have and must champion for the game, they have no plans to make a change to the number of heroes controlled by a player.

To me this is saying that no matter what the pros and cons were they aren't going to take it into consideration. It's their baby, no matter what happens they want it how it is, end of.
And they thought about all this BEFORE Nightfall actually came out? So, they didn't actually know just how well or bad it was going to work. Kind of like the Paragons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I MP I

Meh. I'm not surprised at all really. If adding more heroes became a reality, then the towns would be even more empty then they are now. Guildwars wouldn't even be an mmo. Just a bunch of people playing alone as if they were offline. Not to mention all the endless rants from people who don't own nightfall and have no access heroes complaining about not getting into a group. Hence the decision Anet made. Which is fine either way, I have other things to keep me occupied.

It's about having the option. Just because it's there doesn't mean everyone will always use it.
I doubt very much people aren't going to get groups just because they don't have Nightfall. If so, that'd be a problem already.

KiyaKoreena · May 28, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge Martinez

I think the dev team and Gaile are right. Great job Anet, keep it up!

Fully agree with you.

Honestly, for the people whining they should allow people to have 7 heros out at one time because they can't find another person to play with: Find a better guild!

unienaule · May 28, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

It would help if you didn't say things like "OMFG YOU CANT FIND 7 real people for hard mode," when you don't need seven, you need one, for your "uber team" of 2 people and six heroes. I think Heroes made some people worse at the game because Heroes with decent builds can make up for your own build sucking, whereas before with henchmen, you had a real incentive to figure out how to get along, play nice, and work out a team build with other people. Sure, some people will rage against me saying that, but I routinely built 6-8 man teams in the old days of prophecies with PuGs, and if you really tried and didn't go the second you had 8 people, it was usually pretty good.

semantic · May 28, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

There are 2 really basic reasons we can't have 7 heroes:

1. the game would be stupid easy. Everywhere.

2. you'd feel useless. Heroes would pull so much weight, you could AFK and barely notice the difference.

In most areas, the first one would be true with just 1 more hero. 4 more would be ridiculous. You'd have so much flexibility, it would be trivial to circumvent every tactic employed by the AI in a given area or mission. And once you had set up the skills necessary to neutralize any threats and deal the required damage, you'd have at least a dozen skill slots left over.

Having 7 heroes seems like a good idea, but it wouldn't be fun.

Mordakai · May 28, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Bottom line, from Gaile's comments, and the fact that Guild Wars 2 will have neither henchies nor heroes, it's pretty obvious the designers are not happy with the current situation.

Only time will tell if GW2 is better or worse because of it.

bhavv · May 28, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

but I routinely built 6-8 man teams in the old days of prophecies with PuGs, and if you really tried and didn't go the second you had 8 people, it was usually pretty good.

And did you enjoy playing hard mode in the old days of prophecies with pugs and henchmen? Do you even play HM now?

I think comments like yours are purely made without reading anything that this whole disscussion is about.

If I had 7 heroes I would have had Legendary Gaurdian by now, rather then having to join pointless upon pointless pugs and wasting my time.

Theus · May 28, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by semantic

There are 2 really basic reasons we can't have 7 heroes:

1. the game would be stupid easy. Everywhere.

2. you'd feel useless. Heroes would pull so much weight, you could AFK and barely notice the difference.

In most areas, the first one would be true with just 1 more hero. 4 more would be ridiculous. You'd have so much flexibility, it would be trivial to circumvent every tactic employed by the AI in a given area or mission. And once you had set up the skills necessary to neutralize any threats and deal the required damage, you'd have at least a dozen skill slots left over.

Having 7 heroes seems like a good idea, but it wouldn't be fun.

You know what else isn't fun?

STANDING IN A DISTRICT FOR AN HOUR PRAYING THAT THE NEXT HUMAN THAT ENTERS THE DISTRICT ACTUALLY WANTS TO PLAY HARDMODE!

And no don't give me this "get urself a new guld" horseshit. It's such a retarded counter argument.There are people who play this game that enjoy the guild that they are in, and shouldn't have to be forced to leave it to enjoy particular part of the game.

If I wanted to wait hours on end for party invites, I'd head back to FFXI.

Zinger314 · May 28, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Gaile made a response to the idea of improving Henchmen instead of allowing 7 Heroes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile

I think that's a really good idea. The design team would welcome comments on that subject, I'm sure. Of course, like any other subject, listening and analyzing input won't necessarily result in implementation, instant or otherwise. Despite our track record of fulfilling enormous numbers of player requests, Guild Wars cannot be built around "design by committee" or based on fulfilled demands that are counter to the overall good of the game. But your constructive ideas on the subject of henchman improvement are more than welcome. Keep in mind that there is a non-henchman, non-Hero system for GW2 so I would suggest that simpler suggestions are better than those that require half a dozen designers and programmers to implement, for that would seem a foolhardy utilization of staff, given the future.

You'd think that the designers of the game would know why Healing Breeze and 10e spells are bad on Henchmen Monks...

I think it's a ploy to make us feel important.

Koross · May 28, 2007, 03:35 AM // 03:35

I think that whatever reasons Anet comes out with and no matter how strong or correct the reason is, people will still complain about it because ultimately, it goes against their wants.

You can read any of these type of threads and there will be people pointing out both sides of the arguement and also the steps on how to utilise the heroes and henchies properly. In the end though, its how the game is at the moment and you should learn how to use it to the best of your abilities to make the game fun for you and everyone else.

Orinn · May 28, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottyboysn

I really get a kick out of them saying it would reduce players playing with other players, especially when you can have a full party with 2 players and 6 heroes. All the extra heroes would do for me is replace henchmen, not people. Who is really concerned about the henchmen's feelings? Come on.

Here's the thing that makes "incentive to play with other humans" a laughable concept. The people who WANT to play with other people, play with other people. The people who don't want to play with other people, will take heroes and henchmen. I'd much prefer taking 7 heroes, but failing that, I'll take 3 heroes and 4 hench over other, live players 90% of the time.

Like I always say: "Henchmen are stupid, but they're PREDICTABLY stupid. Humans come with no such assurances."

Personette · May 28, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Here's my problem with arguments against having 7 heroes because it would discourage human groups - I don't want to be in a group with someone who doesn't want to be in a group with me. People who want to be in a group with heroes only, who think that human players are inferior, etc., are not going to be fun to play with - they will be impatient, rude, and unfriendly. When you force people to do things that they would rather not do, they tend not to be cheerful or gracious about it. They make everyone else miserable. That's not really a situation I want to be in.

As for arguments about 7 heroes being overpowered - well, the same argument applies to 7 competent HUMAN players, and that's obviously encouraged in the game. If you have seven really good human players, yeah, an eighth person can slack off and everyone else will be fine. If you have seven or eight really good human players, PvE is your oyster. How does it makes sense to say that that's good, but having a single human player with 7 heroes in the same situation is bad?

I prefer to play with real humans, but I would like to have the option of using 7 heroes. And I don't think the arguments presented against it are at all convincing.